Talk:Transubstantiation

Needs a scientific view

As much as it's a theological topic, this article needs a science section to highlight the fact that this transformation has never been detected in controlled conditions, and what (if any) attempts have been made over the years. 203.59.80.62 (talk) 09:57, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

You wil never find any Trans-form-ation because the article deals with Tran-substantia-tion. Please note that the philosophical difference between form (i.e. accidends), and substantia is the core of the doctrine of Transubstantiation. The doctrine of Transubstantiation dont deal with what is related with the form, which can be physically experimented. So there is no reason to mention a scientific fact that dont applies here. A ntv (talk) 10:18, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

According to Church teaching, the transformation cannot be detected in any conditions whatever, controlled or otherwise. Detection of any change in the appearances would contradict the teaching. Esoglou (talk) 10:23, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Any anecdotes about controlled experiments, if any, might be amusing. However, since it's a theological topic, it's entirely about a belief -- and not science. The very idea of transsubstantiation is 0.00% (zero per cent) scientific, and so it would be a rather pointless addition to the article. To paraphrase user "A ntv" above: science doesn't have an answer to transsubstantiation because it is pure BS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.44.0.4 (talk) 21:52, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

It's curious that the above editor doesn't advert to the Mind-body problem. Can anyone say absolutely that the human mind is pure BS since the only evidence for it scientifically is the bio-electical activity of brain cells interpreted (by many) as the effect of a human mind on the individual human brain? That's why some people say there is no mind, but only brain activity: no mind has ever been detected in controlled conditions. In any case, observing this debate from a distance, I would say there is as much evidence for the existence of the human mind as there is for the transubstantiated presence or reality of Jesus Christ himself in the form of bread and wine. Neither of these seems to be a problem for Physics but for Metaphysics (you can't measure gravimetric intensity with a demographic study!—wrong tool!). Personally, I believe in the reality of the human mind apart from the human brain (Out-of-body experience and Near-death experience). I better quit here—don't get me started! It's amazing how much you learn from years of proof-reading other peoples' stuff. --LittleOldManRetired (talk) 23:05, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Apparently LittleOldManRetired's views on the human mind got him blocked. --Λeternus ^(talk) 09:18, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

No, the user failed a sockpuppet check. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.45.222 (talk) 13:20, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, and such section could be very short, as in, "scientifically, no such thing exists". 2001:9E8:461B:D00:3878:8015:5E47:EB29 (talk) 21:36, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

This dialogue should be edited into the article. I was reading the article, I understood nothing. I read this paragraph in the talk pages,now I understand what is the difference between catholics and protestants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.207.43.94 (talk) 17:59, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

The "Figure of Speech" Argument

Knowing how Wikipedia dislikes original research, I wonder if there is any textual source for the following argument against Transubstantiation: that the bread and wine being Christ's body and blood is simply a figure of speech. Ancient Hebrew was very fond of high-flown metaphors and poetic exaggeration, as evidenced for example in Psalm 22:6:- But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. Might not the same kind of figure of speech be intended in Mark 14:22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body? I don't know if it is original research or not. I certainly haven't encountered it anywhere else, despite looking. Can anyone else help? Nuttyskin (talk) 13:12, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

The problem is not the lack of sources on this, it is the fact that there are literally a thousand years' worth of highly erudite sources. Very difficult to absorb and summarize without spending a lifetime of scholarly expertise. Which is why this article has to rely on good-quality tertiary literature. --dab (𒁳) 09:28, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

a thousand years' worth of highly erudite sources.

Yes, all arguing in favour of Transubstantiation. My point was, as William of Occam might have said, the simplest explanation tends to be the right one: in other words, this bread is like my body, this wine is like my blood.

Nuttyskin (talk) 14:20, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

First canon of the Council of Trent

If anyone were to deny that the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ is contained vere, realiter et substantialiter in the Sacrament of the Most Holy Eucharist..but is in it only in signo vel figura or virtute, let him be condemned

sourced here (at minute 52:50). The original text written yesterday was without errors. However, the source is a WP:reliable source. I will replace it with the exact indication of the point of the video to which the citation has to be referred. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.38.234.79 (talk • contribs) 12:50, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

"From the earliest centuries..."?

So, from the first century? The second? When treating a subject so profound as well as contested there must be a more specific reference to a point in time than this generality. Wayniack (talk) 20:50, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

'body and blood, soul and divinity'

this should be mentioned in the lead, otherwise the lead is misleading 193.149.173.67 (talk) 13:18, 27 March 2025 (UTC)